Ethics

[terrycm]

Despite how uncomfortable this subject is, I feel it is important to get a discussion going on the subject of intellectual theft. I would really like to get your opinion on this and whether you agree or disagree please respond and elaborate on your position.

It is likely that one day some of you will discover that someone else in this industry has stolen your work, concept, or design. If this occurs you will most likely be confronted with a wide range of emotions.

From my point of view there are 3 things ethically wrong with stealing intellectual property.

1. Time and Effort - The time that goes into an original concept, design, feature, effect, etc, is labor intensive, even the most gifted creative people go through a long process of revision and refining before they are able to create something unique. It is precisely because of the time and effort that one feels cheated when someone else takes your work.

2. Respect - There is something terribly disrespectful about taking from someone in such a small community like ours. Most people who have been in this business for a while know each other and keep up on each others progress and work. There is generally a very spirited exchange along with great amounts of encouragement among fellow panoramic photographers which is unique and wonderful to our industry. Theft in my opinion destroys this feeling and instead makes one guarded and reluctant to help and share.

3. Ownership - The most basic principle is ownership of your created work. I often get the sense that just because the creation is digital that it is acceptable to take or steal. I firmly believe that there is no difference between a digital work of art and one you hang on your wall. They should be treated with the same regard in my opinion.

So if you see a concept, design, or effect you like what can you do?

1. Ask - You would be shocked how appreciative I am when someone asks before they use a specific concept or design. Most of the time I say sure no problem or offer suggestions on how to modify the item in question so it is unique to their tour. This is above all the most ethical thing one can do to pay respect to the creator/author of the original content.

2. Apply your own creativity - Using an idea is perfectly acceptable if you apply your own creativity and uniqueness to the project. Do not be lazy, put real effort into making your tours unique and your own.

In conclusion you have two ways to go about your business. If you choose to follow the ethical way you will have my utmost respect and thanks. You may even become a good friend of mine and I am a firm believer in helping my friends. If you choose to go with the other option you may get ahead temporarily by standing on the shoulders of others but it will catch up with you eventually and it won't be pretty.

This post came about because of two events that happened to me recently. One in which I feel someone has taken my work (who happens to live in the same small city as me) and another where a dear friend of mine asked to use a concept and when turned down responded with the highest level of respect and dignity. I sincerely hope everyone listens to what I have to say here. Most of the old school people in the business already know this so at the very least I hope it is informative to those who are new to this industry or anyone considering starting a VT business.

Hope I didn't sound like I was lecturing all of you, I welcome your feedback and comments.

-Terry

[Bruce Hemming]

When I'm not shooting panos I produce editorial features for interior and home interest magazines - in fact that takes up most of my time. Here in the UK we have a small online group for like minded photographers and currently one of our biggest complaints is that our still images are being used online by numerous bloggers without permission or payment. I'm afraid to say that virtually all of these bloggers are based in the US. I have challenged a couple of them pointing out that just because I put my work online on my website this does not give them the right to copy or even link to my site. The most recent instance was so blatant that I felt compelled to send a 'cease and desist' notice. The response was by telephone threatening to sue me for restricting their business - the justification being that use of copyright material is permitted under the 'Fair Use' clause of US copyright law.

Having investigated this further it appears that this is true, simply putting any kind of comment under the stolen work can bring the use within this clause. Indeed Google go out of their way to point out that complaining to them about copyright abuse can produce serious financial consequences and that you are advised not to even think about it without consulting a lawyer.

This isn't an anti US rant, just pointing out how the law works. Unfortunately because of the implications of attempting to do anything within the jurisdiction of a foreign nation is almost impossible anyway I and my colleagues have decided that there is nothing that we can do about it. Unfortunately a culture has grown up with the belief that if it is online it is free - music, film, design etc etc. Countering this is very difficult and the proposals by government regarding 'Orphan Works' etc show that control is being taken away from the artist and placed more and more into the hands of big business. Here in the UK we have the current administration preparing to introduce 'Fair Use', 'Orphan Works' and other clauses which will leave the authors far less power to defend their rights. The AOP and other organizations are fighting this but it is unclear if they will succeed. Having played a very small part in the process that reformed the Copyright Act in the UK in 1986 I view these developments with some despair.

Theft of others ideas is nothing new, Pope and Swift were complaining about it centuries ago and perhaps Swift's own riposte to a plagiarist is still the best - 'fine words, I wonder where you stole em?' - just substitute pano for words and the sentiment is the same.

Regards

Bruce

[Trausti Hraunfjord]

Copyright... is a bloody joke.

... or maybe it is to be understood differently in the "free world" we live in now... as in: "You have the right to copy whatever you want".

Latest episode I had with thieving dishonest people, was when James Rigg who owned Panoguide, sold it to Tourwrist. Good for him... but he sold MY WORDS to a "competing company, without asking for my permission to sell MY words. If he had asked, I might have said yes... and I might have said no. Probably the latter to be honest, since I never ever signed up on the Panoguide forums to have my words sold to ANY company. Considering that my posts in the Panoguide forum counted for a considerable over-all percentage of all forums posts, it is only fair to assume that without that percentage of posts, the forums would have been "less active" ... and therefore less valuable for a sale.

I asked the new owners to remove all my posts from the forums. That resulted in me being blocked from posting more (goes to show the level of "integrity" the new owners have). I made them aware of the fact that they were STEALING my words if they didn't PAY me for the use of my posts... they DID pay for my words, but paid the money to James Rigg, who didn't share the amount with anyone of course. Offering them to pay for my posts to keep them, didn't even generate a reply from the new owners. Making them aware that they could face a lawsuit for copyright violations, got them to throw the book at me through their legal services, threatening ME for bothering them for having stolen from me!

Me going through a lawsuit crap with an American company... fought in the American "justice" system... yeah, sure... dream on. So I offered them a way out: "Remove my name and signature from all posts I have made". Signature identifies me with my name and links to FPP/FFC. Again, this was because I never signed up on Panoguide to aid another company. They indicated they would... but they only removed my username, and left all the signatures... so it was less than impressive. Dealing with dirt will get one dirty I guess. IF I signed up there today, I would do so KNOWING that the words I'd be posting, would no longer belong to me, but to the owner of the panoguide... which is a "competing" company, and not a private individual as it used to be. Which is why I have felt no urge to return to post there.

It just goes to show that honest business practices are NOT the dish of the day for some people, and stealing is considered the only right way to do things, because it CAN be done (might makes right).... and when the thieves are made aware that their theft is not a welcome thing, they threaten to sue!

Madness.

Absolute bloody madness.

I know the projects of which Terry is speaking, and I share his sentiment compeltely. The person who has lifted his design without asking for permission or even giving him an honorary credit for the original design, could have done things in a completely different way. Maybe it was done without thinking about the deeper implications... there is always that possibility... but it is difficult to stretch one's fluid imagination to such lengths. Theft is theft. Plain and simple.Borrowing something for PRIVATE display, is something I can absolutely understand and accept ... as an example of a concept... an example of packaging... but it should not be used in any business related displays or in order to generate business, using stolen designs of others, to sell one's "own" projects. That is theft. The person behind this design "lifting" is a FFC user, but apart from having purchased FFC, I have had no contact with him whatsoever. It is also outside my "jurisdiction" to hit people over their heads when something like this comes up... I am not in the role of some international police force... all I can do is to express my personal view here... and I will not be contacting the person privately over this matter. But I would understand if Terry did. Just as I would take contact to a thieving entity who'd be stealing from me (as I did in the case of the new owners of panoguide... not that anything good came out of it though).

Terry also mentions another FFC user who respectfully asked for Terry's permission and guidance... which he got. He is also a good friend of mine, a honest and good guy whose only flaw happens to be his blatant appreciation of iDevices and all things Apple (take that last thing as a joke)

Learning from the success of others is what we should all be doing, but there is a difference when people rip designs from others and sell those without blinking an eye. They may think that it is only a button or only a bar or some such... If it was that simple, they could have come up with the concept themselves. Especially when the offending part is living in the very same town/area where Terry lives, it makes the offense even greater.... Not that anyone would ever confuse the works of regal360 with the works of the violating party due to the extreme difference in quality of the projects, website layouts etc, but that is beyond the point.

It never hurts to ask, never hurts to respect the works of others... but it does hurt when one's own works that may have taken minutes or hours or days or months... are stolen and used to float some other business, without even a hint of appreciation for the work they lifted.

Rant off, but we should all keep in mind that just because something can be done, it doesn't mean it SHOULD be done.

[terrycm]

Actually this is our friend from Spain , but the guy your thinking about also took the right road and asked for my permission. These guys will always have my respect and support because of the way they handled the situation.

[ondrat]

Hey Terry, the only thing I can say is I completelly agree with everything written. I haven't been long enough in business to get a chance to come accross this issue but it seems to be just a matter of time for everyone...

I only wonder how did you actually find out about the theft... Is it just random discovery or do you check internet sometimes for possible copyright violation? Out of curiosity I have just tried to use one of the cubeface on Google image finder but it didn't find anything even with a good description. But I believe this tool will be only improving hereafter so it might be usefull one day.

I think this is a good oportunity to open discussion about how to protect your work. Pano Cocoon is certainly great tool but using it bring some downsides (encrypted images are much bigger in size, analytics doesn't work when you encrypt XML, etc.) <<<--- EDITED: sorry I just realised this was a wrong statement, analytics does work even for encrypted files--->>>. What sort of other protection do you use? I wondered the other day but this is something to be discovered more when I have a time ... can you secure somehow your files on the server against ilegal copy?

I would appreciate any suggestions. As Trausti wrote we live in the free world and motto "You have the right to copy whatever you want" worries me.

[Bruce Hemming]

Try this simple search - Google your own name - or name of business - and look at images revealed in your search. On the first page alone of my name search there are 17 blogs all using my images without permission. It's pretty depressing but there we are.

Bruce

[Trausti Hraunfjord]

The world is turned upside down compared to what it should be.

Back in my youth, it would be the criminals who hid behind ski-masks... in today's world, it is the police that hides behind the black ski-masks. In Denmark there is a law that prohibits the use of masks in public gatherings... but conveniently the police is exempt from that law.

Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose.... rings ever so true.

[ondrat]

Oh, Bruce, I am not long in the industry so I can't find nothing yet under my company name or my name. But imagine to be in your possition I would be so upset And it looks like perhaps I might be there sometime in the future. So I want to do something but I don't know what Is there anything what you regret you haven't done according to protection of your work? Or do we just need to accept theft as a fact and get use to it... ?

[Bruce Hemming]

First apologies to Terry for slightly diverting this topic onto the wider issues of ethics in general. He was being more specific about his own design and concept theft issues and for that there might be redress if it can be demonstrated that his work was online first and was subsequently copied. I believe that it is possible in the US to register images and design to establish copyright ownership. This is something that we do not have in the UK but in this context would be very useful. I do know that American photographers associations are active and supportive in this area. Having been a member of the AOP here in the UK some time ago I am considering rejoining - especially if they will take an interest in interactive imaging. It is still largely regarded as some kind of odd and rather unimportant area of photography.

re my own situation with abuse of my still images, unfortunately I don't think that there is anything else that I can do. Copyright law is coming under pressure from governments worldwide who believe that relaxing it will promote business - it will - big business will gain at the expense of the little fishes like us. I'm not about to throw money at lawyers with little hope of success so I largely turn a blind eye and keep my blood pressure down. Remember the quote from The Godfather - a lawyer with a briefcase can steal more than 50 men with guns!

Regards

Bruce

[terrycm]

No need to apologize Bruce, I am thrilled to have broad discussion about intellectual theft because it comes in all shapes and sizes. I take my craft seriously so when I see my own work and work from others being stolen it really gets under my skin.

[kbellis]

Interesting thread; ethics, with a pano spin. But, truthfully I think we all want (stealing from Eli's words) some of "Terry's special sauce" ; )

Seriously though, it's hard to speak to some aspects without knowing exactly what was stolen in any of the above references, but theft of intellectual property, as opposed to more tangible manifestations of property; like images or lines of code, is still taking something that another lays claim on. Preventing such theft is a huge industry in and of itself - and thwarting those efforts is piracy. Makes no difference if the pirate is in China or the US.. or even our own community. Chasing after obtaining patents and trademarks is lengthy and expensive, and then once obtained, you've still the enormity of successfully adjudicating your case against the thief... and that's just within you own country. International piracy makes such protections - as Trausti said, a joke.

I gave up trying to get Pano Cocoon to work as that was during one of the times Trausti was gone for weeks ... maybe I'll try it again sometime whenever I have something worth having stolen .. and that's really what needs addressing. What was stolen and how did they subvert Pano Cocoon's encryption? Or am I misunderstanding this? Was it copying a look? I can't tell from reading Terry's post.

Regardless of the nature of what was stolen from Terry, I think there's a couple of thing to consider: education and prevention.

Ultimately, it is the consumer - not just the facilitating pirate - which allows unethical behaviors to exist and flourish. Down at the local market, a very small place that makes great sandwiches, any returned checks for insufficient funds go under the glass counter top at the check out counter where every customer can see the bank's stamped bounced check. Ethical violations need the light of day shown brightly on them and the consuming public needs to learn about them but in such a way you don't invite liable - just the facts mam. Lastly, I think it's important; however futile, to provide notice of the offense to the offender with every occasion. Let them know that you do not approve of their use of your property, again without inviting liable.

Aside from Pano Cocoon, there are other methods to display your images that prevent stealing, including but not limited to Flash. There's also other means of prevention include any shade you like from subtle to blatantly watermarked images. If the thief is that disparate to digitally remove your watermark, let the community see them in the open.

Kind regards,

Kelly

[ondrat]

It chanced that when I was checking APOD I came accross article related to copyright. It is a different point of view but still interesting though. So I just wanna share it ...btw here is that amazing picture

[Trausti Hraunfjord]

Great picture... but I wonder how it can be that my car didn't pass emission tests.....

Maybe some animals really are more equal than other animals?

[Bruce Hemming]

That's a very good link Ondrat, it covers most of the salient points relating to copyright in single images. From my understanding of the 'Fair Use' clause in US copyright adding even the most trite line like ' I love this picture' and crediting the person who took it would circumvent copyright as the new user has 'commented' on the image and that alone justifies 'Fair Use". Interesting that the article suggests that a cottage industry has sprung up to gain payment for unauthorized use of images. I'd want to see real evidence of that before believing it, it certainly couldn't happen here in the UK as the costs of initiating an action are prohibitive. The article also mentions registering the work and although that is not required to establish copyright it does have obvious benefits if you need to go to law.

All of the above is fairly clear cut as it relates to a single image which can be considered a new and original creation attributable to an identifiable author, where we enter murkier waters is in relation to the type of incident that Terry first referred to. For copyright to exist the work must be identifiable as a new and unique concept and execution and then it is protected from theft in the same way as any other property. This test becomes harder to establish when a work such as a web page can contain elements that are common property or even copyright material licensed from another creator. A really crude example would be a simple single panorama with a button bar control interface. The imagery would definitely be copyrightable but the layout and concept of delivery probably not (even if you created your own unique buttons) because it is such a commonly utilized method.

The point at which the crossover happens from commonly used and therefor non copyrightable to a wholly unique concept (such as Terry's work) is debatable. This is of course where the lawyers enter the fray and it gets expensive and that alone is often sufficient to deny justice to the copyright owner. These are arguments that have been ongoing for a long time, the advent of digital imaging and immediate distribution via the web has only served to make it harder to to arrive at a fair balance which protects while admitting legitimate fair usage.

It's a cultural matter as much as a legal one and because many now grow up with the attitude that anything on the web should be free it will be very difficult to start over. All of the above I must stress is only my personal opinion and shouldn't be taken as an accurate or definitive summation of the law. Having played a small part in the reform of copyright law in the UK over 25 years ago I have some knowledge of the process but that only related to the UK - my memory isn't all that it used to be either

Regards

Bruce

ps if you haven't already read this feature it is worthwhile http://redtape.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011 ... g-stealing

[kbellis]

Thank you for the link Ondrej and Bruce - great article.

Did you check out TinEye? It looks like an interesting thing ... although in context of this discussion, probably irrelevant, specifically citing this from their FAQ:

The Tineye crawler does obey robots.txt. Adding a robots.txt file to your website with an entry to disallow "TinEye" will prevent TinEye from crawling it in the future.

Regardless of subversion, TinEye may be the beginning of the tin sheriff like a BMI for image creators. Who knows?

But for now in Terry's situation and the theft of his work product, I would still provide notice of the offense to the offender with every occasion. Let them know that you do not approve of their use of your property. And that wonderful article also mentions sending the offender a bill.

Kelly

[ondrat]

Thanks Kelly for the link which going straight to my bookmarks. It might be handy one day...

I definitelly agree that every offender should be noticed. Being on a Bruce possition I would probably create something like Copyright violation warning letter and send it to everyone. Even if you don't intend to take further legal steps they should be warned and I bet it will work for some of those...

Just another example on this matter which happened recently. One of my relative is web developer and they have a little company doing websites (in a small country in the middle of Europe). About a month ago one of their client approached them with the letter he received from US company (!) claiming copyright violation (to be perfectly right the US company has some other local company which administer everything). So they checked clients website and realised they forgot to remove two tiny pictures from some page which been there just as an example showing whatever feature when they building website. They just forgot to remove those pictures before publishing website online so it was an accident there were kept there. Too bad... Those two pictures were from some US photo stock company and this company claim copyright violation. Fine was approx 5000 US$. So they took it to lawyer trying to find some way out of it and the only thing they finally achieved was reducing fine to approx 3000 US$. Obviously they removed it straight away but that didn't have any effect. US company af course provided all the documentation proving copyright violation.

I was a bit surprise by this case... I mean everything is fair enough. It was their fault and it was breaking the law so they needed to pay the price. But I was just surprise how easy it was to claim copyright violation from other side of the globe without any warning, anything. Basically they just sent a bill...

I am not quite sure if it would work the other way round ... from Europe to US ... but being in Bruce shoes I would think about that. I know it is a lot of hassle to get a lawyer and everything...

But it would be just worse in the future if we do nothing.

[makiedog]

Terry,
I think I know which concept theft to which you're referring. Is it about the user interface design that someone had implemented by using Pano2VR? If so, here's my 2 cents:

While it is unethical, it is not technically illegal. He did not copy everything pixel-by-pixel, it had enough small differences to not infringe. Unfortunately, such practices are pretty common and not likely enforceable. Everyone at some time or another had "copied" or improved upon existing design concepts, things get muddier when it comes to creative work because it takes very little to change it enough to become unique. While I'm sympathetic to your feelings, I also think it is not worth getting worked up over because this is probably the price you pay for being an original thinker:)

Pat L

[terrycm]

Thought it might be time to revive this conversation. I can't prevent anyone from taking my work and using it to their own benefit, but if I catch you doing it, I'm going to call you out publicly. Today, this message is for Qiming, memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=9846 you haven't the slightest clue with what goes into making these tours, I put everything I have into making them unique. And on top of that, I have contributed to this community tremendously, second only to Trausti in post count. This software has helped me build a dream, and a successful career. This is my life, it's my passion, and I expect you and others to respect this. By all means take inspiration from anything I have done and make it your own, but be respectful of the effort and time that went into the original. Qiming's tour http://www.1905vr.com/case-four/index.html my tour http://www.regal360.com/clients/devils/

talentless_hack.jpg (1.26 MiB) Viewed 647 times

[Morten]

G'day Terry,

Long time since we've seen you on the forum. Or is it just that I've not been back enough recently.

Anyway, it may not be that helpful but the old saying "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery" is pretty relevant here. We are yet to see any work here on this forum that comes close to what you produced even two or three years ago. It is a shame that Qiming has chosen to so blatantly plagiarise your work. Hopefully, you have enough friends around the world that most of your work (or even an attempt to copy it) is very quickly recognised and you are alerted.

To be honest it was great to see this project again. Hope things are going well for you. We also hope that Qiming has the guts to come here and explain himself and of course apologise.

Regards,

Morten

[Trausti Hraunfjord]

I was informed of this back in November, and at that time I contacted Qiming and told him he should remove the pano immediately. He responded back that he would. That has clearly not been the final result. I am 100% with Terry on this. Flattery only goes that far... and it goes nowhere when people outright steal the works of others in this way. Qiming, you did admit to the site being associated with you when I told you to remove the pano from it in November. Why are things still running in the same way at this point?

This is in NO way acceptable. Not to me or Terry or anyone else in the field of panorama providing or for normal photographers.

When I told you to remove the tour from the site, I chose my words VERY carefully, in order to there being NO misunderstanding. You said the tour would be removed, and I believed your statement. How can it be that the tour is still there?

I do NOT find this acceptable at all.

[sapper]

Sneaky Bas#%a*d...

[Trausti Hraunfjord]

[2:47:16 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Have you read the forums yet?
viewtopic.php?f=2&p=14079#p14079

[2:48:39 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: This has long been removed.Now I am not responsible for the site's operation, so there are things I do not know
[2:49:25 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: But initially you said you would remove the tour.... indicating that you had something to do with it?
[2:50:39 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Seriously speaking... I don't have time for this or other issues that may be around... I am trying to have things to work out for me and everyone else... but this is a serious issue
[2:51:29 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: We have two departments, I was primarily responsible for sales and external links, the panoramic making my personal hobby, panoramic involves commercial production, not my department is responsible for.
[2:51:52 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: The tour has NOT been removed, and is still available to everyone... back when I talked to you in Novemeber, you indidated that the site was under your control in some way
[2:52:19 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: This tour has been kept online for several months illegally.
[2:52:25 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I can only raise this issue at the meeting, I can not go directly to ask them to do so, because I'm not the boss.
[2:53:21 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: If you have anything to do with those people, you should be able to tell them that this kind of behaviour is completely and absolutely NOT ACCEPTABLE
[2:53:44 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Chinese people do things very responsible, If I were the boss, I can let them do it, but I'm not. This is a problem
[2:54:18 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: This is no different from robbing a bank or robbing citizens of their savings. This is just WRONG
[2:54:25 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Well, on Friday the meeting, I will go to raise this issue, do you think?
[2:54:38 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: How can you be associated with a company like that?
[2:55:23 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Raise the issue by all means, have them to pull away all the illegal panoramas... the one by Terry and EVERYONE ELSE who have been robbed of their works
[2:55:53 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: But you know, this is in China, every citizen has their own thoughts, they will work, because they are exposed to educational limitations and this, this problem should be to communicate and national leadership
[2:57:19 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I don't care if this is China or whatever other country on this planet. This IS planet EARTH, and we should all respect and adhere to the basic rules of civilized societies.
[2:57:23 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Seriously!"
[2:57:37 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: When it comes to this issue, I have much to say, and more than a hundred years ago, the American invasion of China, robbery and how many Chinese people's property?This dry to shame you?
[2:58:21 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: That is a completely differenet issue and should be discussed in a completly different platform.
[2:59:04 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I think the United States is the world's most shameless, have their place, there is war.
[3:00:09 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I agree with you that England and the US and many other countries have abused China, drained it's national treasury and national blood, but that does NOT justify stealing projects from people who happen to live in the US, who had NOTHING to do wtih the bad treatment of China back in the day.
[3:01:30 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: You and Terry mood I can understand that, but I said, this sector not my department, so I can only put to him this question, pointed them wrong.
[3:01:47 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Give me a few days, do you think?
[3:02:00 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Just because England robbed Icelandic fishing grounds for the most part of the 20th century, it will in NO damn way justify me robbing, attacking, stealing from UK companies.
[3:03:47 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I will give you 5 days from now to bring the message to your bosses, and after that I will totally and completely lock down on all communication between you and I. I did expect you to make things right in November, and you clearly didn't.

This is the consequence.

... and I don't give a damn about any excuses from now on. This is a completely clear example of intentional crime, and I am not going to support this shit.
[3:06:49 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I'm just a worker!
[3:09:03 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: And, you know, that case has disappeared from the site, but the file still exists on the server, the link has not.
[3:09:53 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: If you are an employee, your boss do not want to do this, do you think you have it?
[3:10:15 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Qiming, you may be just a worker, but if you are working for a company that is DELIBERATELY stealing the works of my fellow panorama content creators, my personal clients... then I can not support you or your masters in any way or form. That is not negotiable. Not even when we consider the fact that the UK invaded Icelandic waters, invaded the country.. disregarded international law etc. ... that has NOTHING to do with current panorama situation.
[3:11:30 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: If I am an employee in a company, and the company wants me to do something illegal: I would report the company to the highest authority, bringing all the needed evidence of their crimes
[3:11:47 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Too long because the history of the Chinese people, everyone thought too.Not blindly execute commands.
[3:13:02 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: If you know you will not be surprised.Moreover, I've not managed by that department a year, I am currently responsible for sales promotion. . . . .This damn staff
[3:14:08 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Qiming. I CAN not and I WILL not work with anyone who is clearly violating copyrights. It's just not going to happen.
[3:15:00 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: That you do not believe that, I have no way, clearly now
[3:15:20 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Why would I provide anything to a company you work for, if the company doesn't respect the rights of others?
[3:17:00 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: why did I have to respect an American? Clear that his country has been in violation of our
[3:17:20 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: My friend Terry.... from regal360.com is a real friend. He dedicates his life to his job, doing what he does... and then 1905vr.com comes along and steals his work... should I just accept that as a friendly attempt at showing interest?
[3:19:55 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Well, I'm not your friend yet?I do work here, but I can not represent my company
[3:21:31 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: As my own, I have not engaged in the making of this case, do you think the responsibility is entirely on me?
[3:21:42 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I am NOT asking you to display some robotic acceptance of American foreign policy, I would NEVER ask ANYONE of such an insane thing. What I am saying, is: Respect the content creatos for what they have done, and don't use lame excuses for "justifying" theft from completely honest people, who never did anything to your country.

Your behaviour appears to be that of a person who can't accept reality as proof of reality!
[3:22:54 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: You do not believe, then I no longer explain
[3:23:27 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I think you very stubborn foreigners
[3:27:12 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Qiming, I don't have to BELIEVE anything. I am not a religious person, and I will never become a religious person... the fact of the matter is: You are working for a company that is DELIBERATELY stealing panoramas, posting those as their own, and YOU are trying to pose as one who is innocent worker of said company.... while you have a lot of "reasons" based on historical facts,"justifying your actions... or rather the actions of your employer.
[3:27:41 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I explain the things you and I already feel tired.I have to tell you aware of the fact, but you do not believe, do not want me to dig to the heart for you to see it?
[3:28:06 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: look at the facts Qiming.
[3:28:49 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I have absolutely NOTHING against you personally... unless you try to defend the illegal actions of the company you represent
[3:29:35 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I can not and WILL not be associated with a company that behaves in that way. I simply can't do it.
[3:29:35 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I do not have to defend my company.I have to say, I will raise this issue to them.
[3:30:55 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I have been here a month, my income is only ¥ 2000
[3:31:49 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Fold into U.S. dollars, only 321.6
[3:32:18 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I also want to get out of here!!!!
[3:33:50 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Qiming, I do not judge you by the money you earn or how long you have worked for the company. That is NOT the issue. Do things correctly, and you can live proudly. Live your life without having to hide away from society. Do that, and you will be more happy in your life than you are right now
[3:35:07 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: You say it is very hard to earn this money.Personally, I can understand your thoughts.
[3:36:19 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I totally see you as a good friend of my own, although we have not met.
[3:38:41 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I really don't have the time to discuss this with you... I am far behind no so many projects, but this is an important issue... I just hope that you can have your "overlords" to understand that they will be TOTALLY BLACKLISTED by every panorama software provider in the world, if they don't stop their theft of panoramas. I will make it to a personal mission to let the world wide panoramic community know of your employing company and the way it operates.... if things are not brought to order within the next few days.
[3:40:34 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: If you this is my personal threat. . .I do not accept.If you as a friend for advice, I can accept
[3:41:51 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I am telling you as it is. If you perceive that as a threat, come to me and work it out if you can. If you perceive it as an advice, react accordingly!
I am not trying to joke about this or to be funny. This is real. You/your company is abusing a friend of mine, and I will not stand for it in any way or form.
[3:44:38 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I think your time is completely wasted on some issues. . .Me back in an hour ago, I would have told you I will take action. . .
[3:44:50 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Do you understand what I am saying?
[3:46:28 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Long time I told you I would do it. .But you seem to not understand the meaning.In more than an hour before, I do not have to tell you this
[3:48:56 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I have to say, I have you as a friend, I will listen to your opinion
[3:50:20 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: You let Terry came to me...
[3:51:10 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Some things, I will give him a reply
[3:54:21 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I have not had time for a lot of things for a lot of time. Seriously. I do not have the time to chit-chat about things, I do try to attend to issues that are important, and equally I have to try and ignore issues/requests that are less than important.

WHY in the hell would you want me to send Terry your way?? What the FUCK is wrong with your perception of reality? YOU ... or YOUR COMPANY stole his work for personal gaining purposes.... and I can guarantee you that Terry and all his ancestors had NOTHING to do with whatever robbery of Chinese treasures throughout history. Just get your damn fucking company to STOP stealing the works of honest and fair people around the world, and we may be able to find a "middle ground".
[3:56:25 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Do I communicate with him, and I want to give him some apology, because I work for the mistakes. . . Can not it?
[3:57:04 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I know you're busy, you do not think such a messenger between the two, very tired?
[3:59:01 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: 1: have his tour removed, and make sure that EVERY other illegal tour is removed from the site.
2: When that is done and confirmed.... try talking to us again.
[3:59:39 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Well, I have a question
[3:59:57 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: You are welcome to ask
[4:00:48 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Until the matter has not yet confirmed that he put things posted to the forum, then I is not that his invasions?
[4:03:37 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: OK....OK....I went to contact them...NOW!!!
[4:06:18 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Night if they use the computer, I let them do it, doing so can it?This does not work, then I only resignation. . .
[4:07:15 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I have told you earlier that I really don't have the time... it is the truth: I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME.... I work around 20 horus per day, am out of the house early in the moring, I may return before noon or in the afternoon, having to go away again, to the jungle or some other places.... I DO NOT HAVE THE TIME needed for crap like this.

I have posted all of our conversations on the forums, becaause I don't have anything to hide, and if you have nothing to hide, there is nothing to fear.

Problem is that I would NEVER work with a company that disrespects the private property of other people.... no matter if they happen to be british or american or Icelandic.... I really don't give a crap about such racist crap. If your company realises" that they did wrong", I can assure you that they will ber reminded of their eternal "mistake".
[4:07:36 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Some things can NOT be excused.
[4:10:01 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: If you have long listened to my advice, then you should not be so busy, I would not stay here now
[4:10:21 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I can go to organize a team
[4:10:36 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Qiming. I am busy because I live in the real world
[4:11:40 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: For this matter, I am really sorry.Your opinion, I'll do it, to give you an answer as soon as possible.I hope we are still friends.
[4:11:49 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: You go and organize your team of whatever talent they can represent, and get back to me
[4:12:35 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I am really disappointed... not in you in particular, but in the way things were handled
[4:13:31 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: I too hope we can remain as friends... but I have to honest and say as it is: I am VERY disappointed in your handling of this case.
[4:15:16 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Well, this see things I do as soon as possible.If I can, I want to say sorry with Terry.You look at my actions, and if I can not do this, since we do not contacted, OK?
[4:15:53 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: Two different cultures, different way of handling things.Can only communicate
[4:16:50 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: I intend to leave the company in the middle of this year, to organize their own team, and I hope you will give me a wide range of support (handshake)
[4:18:11 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: Do ALL you can in order to have Terry's things solved (have his pano(s) removed), and if needed FORCE your superiors to delete every other stolen panorama they have, from their servers. Before that happens, I will not even remotely consider them having an offer on the table.
[4:20:08 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: You can sleep, too late.I wasted a lot of time, I'm sorry
[4:23:12 AM] Trausti Hraunfjord: If you feel that YOU wasted a lot of time to keep ME telling you about the realities of life... then so be it. It IS late/early here, and I need the rest, but don't you ever forget that you are working for a company that is doing EVERYTHING wong. Do you really want toi be a part of that legacy? I think not!

[Trausti Hraunfjord]

... and that is actually my final word on that issue. I need to see some reaction, and not just some empty promises.

[kbellis]

Much shame grows on Qiming and his employer for stealing.
Much honor grows on Terry for his beautiful art.
Much honor grows on Trausti for his friendship.

[terrycm]

Thank you for removing the tour. As I said before, everyone here is welcome to take inspiration and ideas from my work, the only thing I ask is that you put in real effort in making it your own. This software has made it possible for me to achieve my dreams in life. And since we only get one shot at this life, I'm indebted to the opportunity Trausti and this community has given me. I hope by the time I die I have left something interesting behind for others to look at. So lets treat each other's art with respect, shall we.

[Nrgy]

Wow, that wasn't just a "borrowing" of ideas, that was a straight up ripoff. So many knockoffs and IP theft originate from China unfortunately, and the worst part is they don't even attempt to try and hide it.

I think this quote says it all:

[3:17:00 AM] FFC China Qiming MAIN account: why did I have to respect an American? Clear that his country has been in violation of our

[ondrat]

Disgusting, shame on Qiming And all the BS about the America vs China ... he can't be serious to even mention something like that in these circumstances as it is totally irrelevant. Anyway, I am glad the tour was removed at last.

Terry, I wonder how did you find out about your tour being stolen? Was is just accident or do you activelly search for thievery?

O.

[terrycm]

I was lucky enough to have someone tell me about it, I'm not sure if he want's to be mentioned so I will leave it at that. I appreciate people keeping an eye out for this sort of theft.

[burosh]

good friend of yours Terry....As many of us.... you are the leader(of course after traustri) keep going and don't get shit about some thief's.... i'm your fan